Thursday, April 28, 2005

Thought For The Day

Why does the same political party that supports "choice" when it comes to killing a child not support choice when it comes to educating the children who survived the first choice?

23 comments:

Ronnie said...

Valid argument, but too much freedom in education can lead to degraded quality. If you let people send their children to some private school that believes children should learn on their own and not have defined curriculum we could end up with a very lacking new generation. Our public schools aren't as good as they should be, but they do require a level of quality. Some choice is always good, but too much never works out.

P.S. I have a great interview that I’ll bring tomorrow for you.

Stephanie said...

"Some choice is always good, but too much never works out."

Um, so who gets to decide which choices we get to have and which choices are just too much for our feeble little brains? I'd be happy to narrow down the options for you Ronnie, so long as you let me have all of mine.

And I'll just leave you alone on the assumption that public schools are doing good enough job. Made me laugh out loud, though.

Ronnie said...

You get to decide which choices you don't get to make. I'm not saying we shouldn't have choices, I'm saying that complete freedom doesn't work. You think we have laws because they are fun to make? We have them because without them the world just wouldn't work. We don't get to choose everything, and the people who get to make the choices we can't usually are in the government, where we put them. Every choice we don't have as a public is our choice not to have that choice. We give up choices to ensure things.

If we don't ensure that children get some level of education then we aren't doing them any favors by giving their parents that choice.

"Our public schools aren't as good as they should be, but they do require a level of quality." That to me doesn't sound like the highest praise of public schools.

Stephanie said...

Thanks for the clarification. Your original comment (interpreted incorrectly!) really gave me a visceral reaction. Seriously -- I'm almost never that snippy.

Anonymous said...

Haha, you got told.



-From 7|-|3 1337 /\/\4573|2 | |20><0|25

Stephanie said...

Anonymous, this is how adults have a conversation and resolve a misunderstanding. Sorry you don't get that.

To get back to Darren's original question... I think the answer is that one of the choices tends to increase peoples' dependence on government, while the other choice tends to decrease peoples' dependence on government. And we can't have people reducing their dependence on the government, can we?

Darren said...

Stephanie, your last point *is* the answer.

And just so you know, Ronnie has a skewed view of public education. He's an exceptional student at an exceptional school. Bright people are going to learn no matter what kind of school they go to, though, and therefore might not see the problems even if they attend a lousy school.

And Ronnie, as a parent I would like to decide what my child should learn. In Edmonton, in Canada, private religious as well as private secular schools all report to the public school board. Apparently it works pretty well--academic standards are maintained equally, but people get a choice in where they want to send their children.

You're right, though, about choosing to give up choices. Alexis de Tocqueville said that governments help control the passions of the public; I think you made that point as well.

Stephanie said...

Actually, Darren, there is some evidence that gifted students will not necessarily learn without help from competent teaching. Check out this article in Education Week (registration required): http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2004/06/23/41delacy.h23.html?querystring=margaret%20delacy

Here's a good quote: "While less effective teachers produced gains for lower-achieving students, Mr. Sanders found, only the top one-fifth of teachers were effective with high-achieving students. These problems have been confirmed in other states. There is overwhelming evidence that gifted students simply do not succeed on their own."

An interesting potential problem for schools.

Ronnie said...

I don't see how parents don't already have the choice. In our district you can decide which school you want your child to attend. Also, you can have your child go to a school in another public district. I didn't go to the closest school for middle school. My mom had me go to another school due to different programs.

Private schools can be great, but with the crazy teaching ideals and curriculum that could be used I think we need more structure. A system in which public schools are more specialized, but still state run, would be what I would want because you have both educational security and choice.
I'm sorry if I'm sounding kind of pushy on this subject, but I just don't see the need for a private school system.

If you want your child to learn something outside of the state curriculum, you can always get them a book or have them go to some sort of Sunday School; it's not like your not free to teach your children. The reason we have public school is to guarantee a reasonable level of education.

EdWonk said...

Very engaging dialougue. That's good. (Except for Anonymous Troll)

One thing that I might add to Darren's origional thought:

"And why does the same party that advocates "choice" when it comes to the unborn will fight "tooth and nail" to abolish "choice" when it comes to the execution of those that molest and muder the survivors of the original choice?"

Darren said...

I should turn the text of this post into a bumper sticker--and then drive to the education rally at the Capitol next week.

I'm thinking of showing up there with a sign that reads, "Up with Arnold, Down with CTA"!

Anonymous said...

heh, nice idea, but as a student, life as is is a pain. Politics shouldn't be a concern of a high schooler. it just isn't right for us to think "anrold is trying to fix the debt that gray davis made". We should be having fun in high school. Not worrying about some middle aged man “got nothing against them” who is going to make this state even worse. and that we should decide what we want to do in middle school not high school. in high school you should be working on what you want to do, having fun making good memories with friends you probably wont see again. Not in college, it is way to late for that. We are over worked as is, half the crap we are learning is not even used in everyday life, and if so we dont need to know why or how it works. Like i am going to need to know why a car pings after the engine is turned off "it is a chemical reaction, BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH" i dont need to know that. Why do we need to learn english, if you can write it so other people can understand you, read it, and speak it WHAT ELSE IS THERE TO LEARN. "Excuse me, but to whom are you speaking to?" PSH, screw that, we dont need to learn that, "who are you talking to".

Anonymous said...

*continuing*

". English is just stupid, we shouldn't waste an hour on things like that. Just pointless, "oh you have a grammatical error right here" "did you understood what i wrote" "yes" "THEN SHUT UP". We dont need help on english, math yes, history yes, science maybe, but english, NO. also there are some students who dont need help at all, and all the attention is focused at them, look around, there are only a handful of them, the could be gifted dont mean they are hard workers. Gifted doesn't mean anything, George Washington wasn't gifted, he was a guy who just worked hard at what he did. Further more i also believe that students have WAYY to much pressure on them. I mean colleges acceptance rates have dropped to low as 8% in some cases, Berkeley is around 36%, and the other UC's are around 40%. Give us some slack. In, addition, the grading system is not fair. now dont go on and think "oh he is a poor student, that is why he complains" WRONG, alot of people believe this also. That no 2 teachers teach the same way and they their standards are not the same. And that your "GPA" should determine everything and how the rest of your life goes. Well, I dont care what a letter on a piece paper says, that should not determine your life. Some people do great on tests and have a crappy GPA. Others have a Great GPA and do great on test. I even know people who come to the SAT's and AP tests, drunk or high "ya it is illegal, dont need to lecture me, lecture them" and Score great scores. Isn't luck, if it is, then the dozens of people who have been a situation like that are pretty damn lucky.

Anonymous said...

*continuing*

I dont care if people who read this find me stupid or ignorant, it is the truth, the school system is crap. The who school funding is wasted stupidly. Why do we need security cameras in our school instead of new desks. Why should dess code matter, the way sometimes people dress help an individual define who they are. Why do we need 3 Vp's to Yak at us tell us to put on a sweater, change shirts, instead of getting more Counselors who help us with our future. If you can answer these questions then well you should be the governor.

Anonymous said...

Also, Stephanie "this is how adults have a conversation and resolve a misunderstanding. Sorry you dont get that" There are troops in Iraq BUTTING in to other people's business and solving it with an M-16 and a Barrett M-90, I talk to troops stationed there almost on a daily basis. They get bored in the base and dont care about who they kill.

Anonymous said...

*continuing*

"not speaking for all of them there are some exceptions," however a majority of them just dont care. quote "what is the stupidest thing they the talaban have done?" "haha, you mean the ragheads, well when they get out of the car and they start to shoot at the tanks with their AKA's, i threw a nade and killed about 5 of them."not speaking for all of them there are some exceptions," however a majority of them just dont care. quote "what is the stupidest thing they the talaban have done?" "haha, you mean the ragheads, well when they get out of the car and they start to shoot at the tanks with their AKA's, i threw a nade (grenade for those who don't know) and killed about 5 of them. I will give them that they are persistent."

Anonymous said...

ok now other people stationed in Iraq were laughing at this and adding comments. dont tell me how adults act, everyone is not the same, there are adults out there who are complete morons, http://www.maddox.xmission.net/ *he is a grown man and have millions of people who agree with him, not only kids*, (Clinton), and some who are a great person (pope John Paul II). Further more, Adults are the ones who causes war and conflicts, children dont care, teens dont care. Children and teens end up solving the Adults mess an repeating history. A child could be wiser than an adult. Also a child are purer than most adults. Sure we do things bad time to time, but we dont mean harm, it is the adult influences that make us do crap. So dont tell me "this is how adults resolve a misunderstanding," So next time you tell me how "adults resolve a misunderstanding" think about it. by now you probably think i am immature, heh, i dont care, i am honest and i tell things as is. I dont need to lie about this and keep bottled up inside.

Anonymous said...

*continuing*

ok now other people stationed in Iraq were laughing at this and adding comments. dont tell me how adults act, everyone is not the same, there are adults out there who are complete morons, http://www.maddox.xmission.net/ *he is a grown man and have millions of people who agree with him, not only kids*, (Clinton), and some who are a great person (pope John Paul II). Further more, Adults are the ones who causes war and conflicts, children dont care, teens dont care. Children and teens end up solving the Adults mess an repeating history. A child could be wiser than an adult. Also a child are purer than most adults. Sure we do things bad time to time, but we dont mean harm, it is the adult influences that make us do crap. So dont tell me "this is how adults resolve a misunderstanding," So next time you tell me how "adults resolve a misunderstanding" think about it. by now you probably think i am immature, heh, i dont care, i am honest and i tell things as is. I dont need to lie about this and keep bottled up inside.

Anonymous said...

*continuing*

So there, all that needs to be said is said. Except that Bush is a moron, same with Al Gore, that the congress are a bunch of greedy men, and that the government has to much power *not only america*, Actors and sports players are there for the money, wonder why America is in debt, just ask the hundreds of stars who get paid millions for doing a hobby, people are to greedy, and that the people in america are little babies. when they dont like something, they sue or complain, Hey buddy SUCK IT UP.

Unkn0wn_XIII@yahoo.com just in case there is an "misunderstanding"

Anonymous said...

Forgot to mention something Stephanie, Ronnie is a student. so you "adults" can now talk about what i said

Darren said...

Anonymous, I'm not sure what point you were trying to get across there, but I'm glad to provide you with an avenue with which to express yourself.

As far as English goes, though--do you find any/many spelling or grammatical errors in my writing? Do you stumble over my words, trying to figure out what I actually mean? Hopefully not, and *that's* why there's such a focus on good grammar. You should know the rules before you try to break them. For example, I knowingly and willingly split infinitives and end sentences in a preposition. Additionally, the only time anyone ever says "this is he" is when they're on the phone and someone asks, "Can I speak to so-and-so?" I usually answer that question "That's me!" or "You got me". The second one is not grammatically correct but the common usage is known. That's far different from "He be..." and "We is..." and anything with a misplaced modifier. Hopefully by now I've garnered at least a modicum of praise from our English teachers. :-)

There is another Anonymous that comes here not to share thoughts, which you did, but primarily to call me names. That's not appropriate, it isn't how *civil* discourse is conducted, and I won't allow it any further. I don't agree with some of what you wrote, but I deal with that in a civil manner instead of calling you an idiot. "You got told" isn't very civil, either, and Stephanie (rightly) called you on that.

However, you're certainly not as bad as the other Anonymous!

I wonder though--why do several commenters post anonymously? Why do you feel the need to hide? Dissenters are allowed to comment here, it's only the excessively rude who need be worried.
--Darren

Anonymous said...

I am all the anonymous, and the you got told part. suppose to be funny like a joke. haha?, no humor eh? and yous till under stood what i said so there is no point of me learning more. and Darren i wasn't pointing the useage of english at you. i was saying as a student, learning english is crap. as long as you can read, write, speak, and understand it and so that other people understand you. it should not be teached. it should of stopped like in 7th grade

Anonymous said...

oh yeah i am left as anonymous because i dont have a blogger account and dont want one. and since it provides an anonymous it is useful. i gave out me real email, i wasn't hiding anything